Phaedrus Part Two

While reading the second part of Phaedrus I made sure to pay close attention to anywhere I could see Plato's epistemology appearing. I was able to see his views on virtue vs. pleasure throughout. For instance on pg. 41 Phaedrus states " Not, I think, for those which have to be proceeded by pain if one is to enjoy pleasure at all." One can have pleasure but, they must go through pain to obtain it, one can not just simply have a pleasurable experience.

I also noticed Plato expressing his "supposed" dislike of rhetoric through Socrates. He once again claims that rhetoric does not exist. " a genuine science of speaking neither exists nor will come into existence in the future." Plato thinks the only way to obtain power in speech is through philosophy. I thought it was kind of funny when Socrates then goes on to compare the power of making one thing appear to resemble something else. Kind of like how they are claiming their philosophy to be the cause of their power of speech when really they are engaging in rhetoric.

In the middle part of the reading Socrates says "should we not mention Hippias." This comment seemed almost to be a little bashful towards Hippias. The only reason I mention it is because, I would have thought Plato would like Hippias becuase, if I remember right Hippias was all about recollection as well. Did you see point in the reading where Socrates seemed to be agreeing or clearly disagreeing with any of the sophists?

To be honest this whole latter half of the reading seemed to be confusing to me. They bring up all these Sophists we have previously discussed. I found myself often re-reading sentences because, I couldn't tell if they were agreeing with them or not. At some points I would think they were totally against rhetoric but, at other points of the reading I really wasn't sure. Do you think in the second half Plato is leaning towards rhetoric or against it still?

I guess my answer would be that I see how Plato begins to merge the two. For instance on pg. 55 Socrates reply to how to become an expert in rhetoric is, it is naturally in you to be a good orator but, you must obtain it through knowledge. This sentence made me think Plato is acknowledging rhetoric but, he is using his epistemology as the example for how you would obtain it.